"Those Dreadful Old Catholic Hymns?"
Fr. Fabian Duggan writes about good and bad hymns, ancient and modern. While church musicians of all ages and stripes can agree on the article’s opening paragraph (below), the same paragraph makes perfect sense if one substitutes “new” for “old”.
The above title may need an explanation. It doesn’t mean, of course, that all the old hymns we learnt as children were bad, but we have to admit that many of them were too awful to contemplate. This refers not only to the words of the hymns, but very often to the tunes as well and the sentiments that prompted the words.
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Excellent article. I own a St. Gregory’s Hymnal, and am often appalled at the dismal alternate melodies that assisted the beautiful words of well known Protestant hymns. I own a Westminster Hymnal, and it seems to have been written so as to discourage any singing whatsoever. I own an Adoremus, and it seems to be very concise–almost too concise–many great hymns were left off. And I own many hymnals and songbooks from many different denominations and ages.
The best Catholic Hymnal I’ve encountered is not published in the U.S., but Great Britain. The Kevin Mayhew published “Liturgical Hymns–Old & New” is astounding in its breadth and choice of songs. Highly, highly, highly recommended.
Nick
Nick-
Hmm . . never heard of the “Liturgical Hymns - Old and New” that you mention. I should check it out. Is it still in print?
Also, I have a soft spot in my heart for the Westminster Hymnal on account of its editor, Sir Richard. R. Terry, grand old man of the liturgy at Westminster Cathedral in London at the beginning of the last century (so lay off, bud, on the criticism of the Westminster Hymnal, huh??) Terry had quite the program going there - daily sung choral mass and vespers, boys choir, etc. Almost single-handedly resurrected the masterworks of Tudor Latin polyphony (the “Three T’s”: Tallis, Tye, Taverner, not to mention William Byrd) and was instrumental in the publication of the “Tudor Church Music” series which put a lot of itl back into print. But he didn’t just sing the old stuff: he comissioned and premeried brand new music from the likes of Ralph Vaughan Williams and Herbert Howells (RVW’s great “Mass in G Minor” was first sung by Terry and his choir at the Cathedral for mass there in 1922). Today Westminster Cathedral (the RC cathedral in London, not to be confused with Westminster Abbey) still boasts one of the finest choirs in all of England - I challenge you to purchase just one of their recordings and stop there. Their performances of Victoria in particular are fantastic.
Hiya Sam…
My wife and I attended Westminster Cathedral at Sunday morning liturgy. Beautiful, grand architecture. Went up the tower afterwards and saw all of London.
But…(prepare for heart attack mode)…
…we found ourselves at the Family mass, with the children’s choir up front. Great, I thought, and I expected it to be something like the snippets of the Boys’ Choir in that _Shadowlands_ movie. First song? P&W standard “Majesty”. No harmonization either.
I must admit that I was a little disappointed that the rest of the repertoire not a single traditional hymn, chant, or polyphony was sung. There was no “Westminster Hymnal” in the aisles either–just a handout. All songs were from P&W standards, altho some I did not recognize… must be popular only in the UK.
But even so, I liked the songs, and even learned a couple new ones. And they were all included in the Lit Hymns Old & New as I mentioned earlier. (Lest you think Lit Hymns Old & New is all about P&W, you’d be mistaken… it really is an integrated resource, with tons of songs both traditional and modern). I should definitely compare the Westminster Hymnal and that resource, to see if one improved upon the other…
…the improvement being, doing away with having the words separated from the melody which had made for impossible singability. Had the WH done this, instead of merely reprinting what was there before, I would have warmed to it.
I cannot relish the irony enough… that the prestigious Westminster Cathedral, a trailblazer for sacred polyphony and traditional hymns, has warmed towards the praise and worship songs (and people were singing them) while folks here still debating its merits.
>;-)
Nick
Nick, I hate to burst your bubble, but “praise and worship” songs have a very limited shelf life, and its more of a FAD as far as the church is concerned(keeping in mind the 200 years the church has existed) than anything else. The fewer Vatican II era clergy in power, the less foot in the door to get in “praise and worship” with the exception of insular Charismatic communities.
The shelf life of certain praise & worship songs cannot be fully known until it infact, does die. There are certain praise songs that have a limited shelf-life, I agree, but some do not. There are some who will make the valid point that many Catholic hymns were discouraged as having a limited shelf-life when they were first introduced. Who can tell?
So, I’ll make a deal with you… say, three hundred years from now, let’s talk about this again, and see who’s right.
(I’m partially kidding.)
Nick
P.S.–it’s really “2000 years.”
John, waiting for the bad stuff to “die” has a terror all its own — how many of them , like “Eagle’s Wings,” will prove to be Nosferatu?
Marge, I myself drive a distance to avoid a parish that would use praise and worship for liturgical music, either going to the indult or a reverent Novus Ordo that uses the Collegeville Hymnal. I refuse to put up with OCP or GIA any longer.
Does anyone know of/use the Catholic Book of Worship Vol. III (I live in Canada)? I’m the organist of a choir which uses this text exclusively, and I really do not like it! The lyrics to many hymns have been changed to allow for “political correctness” — ugh! However, since the choir directors plan the music (mostly w/out my feedback), it isn’t really my choice. For the past 16 yrs. I’ve played music that I don’t really like (lots of praise & worship ) & would like to know if anyone dislikes this hymnal as much as I do. Aside from the content, the books themselves are awkward to handle & are almost too big for the music stand on the organ. Furthermore, the choir is in back of the church, as in the “old days” so we don’t lead the congregation as we should be doing! I’m praying fervently for a replacement, or at least an assistant who will fill in a couple of times per month! Any comments, anyone?
You might ask this question over on the rpinet.com boards, as there are several Canadians participats, and the CBWIII has been discussed there (mostly favorably, I think.)
I only have a “pew edition” that i bought at a second-hand store in the States, and haven’t really studied it, but what I have seen I like.
But then I am comparing it to Gather which is a piece of rubbish — abysmal psalter, “inclusive” language to the point that the masculine pronouns hardly seem to exist sometimes, (leading to very awkward writing,) questionable if not downright heretical theology sprinkled in amongst the few good new contemporary hymns and songs, and shere goofiness (Come Thou Almighty King changed to Come NOW….. as if “thou” was too hard a word for modern ears to understand, in that one hymn — it is used in others,) and NO regard for lay-out to eliminate silly page turns (some of the “psalms” with multiple “refrains” give you all of four measures before you flip TWO pages, before flipping BACK two pages.)
I will say that I prefer the choir behind me as “support” when I’m in the congregation, rather than in fron singing “at” me., but that’s just my personal preference. (Obviously, not in buildings whose architecture does not facilitate this.)
I’ve recently (in the past year) started collecting hymnals. The Adoremus Hymnal looks interesting; can anyone tell me more? I’m looking for something with the older, more traditional hymns (e.g., Where Charity & Love Prevail), feast propers, etc., preferably arranged for part singing. My parish uses Gather, Glory & Praise, and Songs For Worship, but the choir I sing with often incorporates more traditional hymns as well (e.g., a Marian hymn every first Sunday, Latin chants during the Triduum).
I would appreciate any recommendations for hymnals with this kind of material (preferably in print). Would “Liturgical Hymns Old & New” have this sort of thing?
And how do you order Liturgical Hymns Old & New? Does the publisher have a website, or do I have to take pen to paper to order, then worry about currency conversion?
You can purchase Liturgical Hymns Old & New on Kevin Mayhew’s website:
http://www.kevinmayhew.com
Select Church Music.
Select “Catholic.”
Or… this site directly.
http://www.kevinmayhew.com/church_music/hb_cath.html
Since I haven’t purchased from this site directly, I can only assume that if you bill your credit card it will do the US-to-UK currency conversion.
Nick
To answer the question raised by Anon–the hymnal has about 500 songs total, with a large portion of these songs being older, established hymns, many of them I had never seen before, but could only assume came out from an Anglo-Catholic tradition. Of the rest, there’s a large amount of ancient chant, Taize chants, and even some contemporary praise songs. There are some of the standard dull Glory & Praise songs, but they do not overwhelm the choices.
I only purchased the guitar edition, so I do not know how in-depth the organ/choir edition is, whether it has full SATB parts or not for its hymns. I can only assume that it does, as it should, and there’s no reason why I should have it. It also has a listing of Psalm responses, and huge indeces in the back, based upon the readings of the week, Scriptural, topical, author and melody.
Nick
1. We use The_Adoremus_Hymnal in our parish. It is very slim ( = more economical, after all), but there are almost as many hymns as the average parish could realistically use, and a good selection of Latin. The hymns are sometimes cut up for brevity, and there are one or two typos, but neither the language nor the Holy Spirit is neutered. Do people sing? Sure they do, daily, and a cappella at that!
The glaring omission from what could otherwise be mistaken for a service book is Mass propers. Even OCP and GIA include some responsorial psalms.
2. The correct position for the unm*ked (I would never spell out that four-letter word in polite musical company) choir or cantor in the rear, in front of the organ, forces them to project up the nave — across the congregation — to the sanctuary, to the Sacrifice. If they are singing to themselves or to a few pews on or off stage, they are not singing well or even on pitch anyhow.
If the church is built with good acoustics, the choral sound pierced by the organ reverberates, mixes with the singing congregation, reverberates, and envelopes the choir. I feel sorry for anyone who has never felt the air compression from a pipe organ, congregation, and choir in harmony wash over them all together throughout a hymn or Anglican chant. Not only is it a wonderful feeling as the singing blooms and grows, the text comes to be practically squeezed up and out of the singer!
Where can we locate a copy of the Westminster Hymnal? I went on Amazon.com and found nothing. I found many references to it, but not the book itself.
I have a copy of the Westminster Hymnal reprinted by Roman Catholic Books (Ft. Collins, Colorado) not too long ago, but it seems to be out of print now from them as I did not see it on their website. Of course it’s available from used booksellers, as link above indicates.
Dear brothers and sisters: I am not a music expert, but I am trying to find out what are the most played organ recessionals. I have been able to identify Widor’s Toccata from Symphonie n. 5. What are the other famous organ recessionals? For instance, what is the one frequently played on Sunday Pontifical Masses in the Vatican?
Thank you.
Dear What happened?
I don’t know if there’s a strict canon out there, but some of the more “famous” organ recessionals are in a handy volume, “The Oxford Book of Ceremonial Music for Organ.” There’s a table of contents listed here:
http://www.oup.co.uk/isbn/0-19-375408-8
The ones by Gigout, Boellmann, and Mendelssohn are probably the best known. There’s also the Catholic favorite, “Tu es petra,” the finale from the suite “Esquisses byzantines” by Henri Mulet.
Hope this helps.
On the Feast of the Assumption, the choir master and schola of St. Agnes’ Church, on 43rd St. in Manhattan, New York City must be complimented for their solemn and tasteful participation in the 11 AM High Mass. While the propers were sung to simple plainchant except for the Alleleuia for the day, the ordinary was Hassler’s Missa Dixit Maria. The offertory Victoria’s setting of Ave Maria. Prior to the mass, the organist played Marcel Dupre’s Nigra sum sed formosa. It is rare in catholic parishes that one sees the Roman rite conducted with such spiritual dignity today. The priest’s intonations were fervent and beautifully rendered. I myself usually attend the tridentine said mass which I find here and there in New York, celebrated privately or publicly. But when on feasts I attend St. Agnes I am never disappointed. There is never a mistep musically. Sometimes there are even wonderful surprises of old masses rarely or perhaps never heard previously. St. Agnes does not have a website as far as I know. But they sometimes print their music ahead of time and distrubute it in church. During the summer, the ordinary is usually Orbis Factor and Credo III. The congregation sings antiphonally with the schola. One should try to support the music there with contributions and attendance.
I wanted to find the words to a hymn, called “My Little White Guest”. I’d learned it for my First Holy Communion; always loved the beautiful words. I put “Old Catholic Hymns” in my search engine; there you were. Didn’t find what I was looking for yet, but want to tell you to please continue what you’re doing here. I’m an organist; will be playing on Sundays, starting in December, at my parish. Sr Elaine, our pastoral minister, wants to start a choir and hire a choir director. If I’m allowed to have any input, your website will be of much value.
This past weekend, I attended a session on church music, part of our yearly, 3 day, diocesan Common Conference, that was conducted by a Dr Robert Wolf. He is minister of music at St Patrick Catholic Church, Brighton, Michigan.
He told how, before he accepted the position, he asked for a pipe organ. The one he wanted is made by LeTourneau, of Canada, has 156 pipes, and cost $600,000! The pastor agreed, as long as Dr Wolf led the fundraiser. After his 1st public plea, a lady, dying of cancer, promised him her entire estate. A month later, at her death, he got $350,000. A widow then gave $50,000, in honor of her late husband, who loved good Catholic music. Others were asked to purchase just one pipe; all 156 were sold. On 10-9-04, Dr Wolf and the parish celebrated with a dedication and concert.
Each of us received a copy of the dedication booklet, featuring a color photo, on both front and back covers, of this magnificent instrument, plus the names of each person or family who helped purchase it, and what they bought. An entire page was given to the $350,000 lady, in the form of a short biography. Wish I could have attended! Even Mr LeTourneau was present, as well he should be!
During our session, Dr Wolf gave us a folder packed with sheet music, suggestion sheets, listing appropriate music for the various liturgical seasons, and even an accompanying cd, enabling us to hear a choir sing the sheet music he gave us. He also divided us into SATB groups; then had us sing other sheet music he’d brought. My favorite was “Adoramus Te Christe”, by Dubois. It’s short, and simple to learn, but, oh, so beautiful! I’d learned it when I was a nun, many years ago, proving there’s something to be said for the “old” hymns, so many of which have been brutally cast aside!
Don’t shut this forum down! It’s like having a music conference anytime you need/want one, but from the comfort of your own home! Bravo to its originator and all who contribute!
Mary Abbey, this is not my blog (I’m just another poster like you,) but I am so gald you found this.
There are more of us out here than you might think and together we WILL make a difference, and we WILL get music in the Catholic Church back on the track intended by the reform (which we all know did not start in the 1960s).
Some posters whose stuff to really look out for — Daniel Muller, Liam, Fr J. Keyes.
They really know their stuff and they are not as “mean” as some of us can get.
Good luck and God bless.
Dear Sir,
I have a new Missa Brevis which you or your readers might find useful. The music is for SATB unaccompanied and is not difficult. Five earlier pieces can be heard at my website http://www.catholicmusic.co.uk and sheet music for all titles as well as a CD of my music, sung by Magnificat, can be bought from me.
If you could mention the existence of my sacred choral music and website/email addresses I would be most grateful to you.
With best wishes,
Nicholas Wilton.
Dear Sir,
I have a new Missa Brevis which you or your readers might find useful. The music is for SATB unaccompanied and is not difficult. Five earlier pieces can be heard at my website http://www.catholicmusic.co.uk and sheet music for all titles as well as a CD of my music, sung by Magnificat, can be bought from me.
If you could mention the existence of my sacred choral music and website/email addresses I would be most grateful to you.
With best wishes,
Nicholas Wilton.
Dear Sir,
I have a new Missa Brevis which you or your readers might find useful. The music is for SATB unaccompanied and is not difficult. Five earlier pieces can be heard at my website http://www.catholicmusic.co.uk and sheet music for all titles as well as a CD of my music, sung by Magnificat, can be bought from me.
If you could mention the existence of my sacred choral music and website/email addresses I would be most grateful to you.
With best wishes,
Nicholas Wilton.
Perhaps 60 years ago I learned in Catholic grade school a Christmas song called “Under the Stars”. I still can sing it but only the first verse. Does anyone know the words to the second verse?
Perhaps 60 years ago I learned in Catholic grade school a Christmas song called “Under the Stars”. I still can sing it but only the first verse. Does anyone know the words to the second verse?
This is going back a lloonnnnggg way; in New Zealand in the 1940’s we had a communion hymn we all sang: O Mary Mother Sweetest Best from heaven’s immortal bowers… Do gather for a little child a bouquet of sweet flowers.
I live in Canada and there’s an organist here who wants to have the music for the next First Communion class.
Anybody know the whole thing?
Any chance of any sheet music around?
Please and thanks
Loretta
I am looking for the words to a hymn named,”Christ Is Risen from the Dead, Alleluia, Alleluia.”
I have the first verse. It’s as follows:
“Christ Is Risen from the Dead, Alleluia, Alleluia.
Risen as He truly said, Alleluia, Alleluia.
O praise the Lord, with grateful voice.
Bless His name, rejoice rejoice.
Alleluia, Alleluia
Bless His name, rejoice, rejoice,
Alleluia, Alleluia.”
Would appreciate any help you can give me as to additional verses.
Thanks,
Barbara
I am looking for the words to a hymn named,”Christ Is Risen from the Dead, Alleluia, Alleluia.”
I have the first verse. It’s as follows:
“Christ Is Risen from the Dead, Alleluia, Alleluia.
Risen as He truly said, Alleluia, Alleluia.
O praise the Lord, with grateful voice.
Bless His name, rejoice rejoice.
Alleluia, Alleluia
Bless His name, rejoice, rejoice,
Alleluia, Alleluia.”
Would appreciate any help you can give me as to additional verses.
Thanks,
Barbara
I am looking for the words to a hymn named,”Christ Is Risen from the Dead, Alleluia, Alleluia.”
I have the first verse. It’s as follows:
“Christ Is Risen from the Dead, Alleluia, Alleluia.
Risen as He truly said, Alleluia, Alleluia.
O praise the Lord, with grateful voice.
Bless His name, rejoice rejoice.
Alleluia, Alleluia
Bless His name, rejoice, rejoice,
Alleluia, Alleluia.”
Would appreciate any help you can give me as to additional verses.
Thanks,
Barbara
I am looking for the words to a hymn named,”Christ Is Risen from the Dead, Alleluia, Alleluia.”
I have the first verse. It’s as follows:
“Christ Is Risen from the Dead, Alleluia, Alleluia.
Risen as He truly said, Alleluia, Alleluia.
O praise the Lord, with grateful voice.
Bless His name, rejoice rejoice.
Alleluia, Alleluia
Bless His name, rejoice, rejoice,
Alleluia, Alleluia.”
Would appreciate any help you can give me as to additional verses.
Thanks,
Barbara
I am looking for the words to a hymn named,”Christ Is Risen from the Dead, Alleluia, Alleluia.”
I have the first verse. It’s as follows:
“Christ Is Risen from the Dead, Alleluia, Alleluia.
Risen as He truly said, Alleluia, Alleluia.
O praise the Lord, with grateful voice.
Bless His name, rejoice rejoice.
Alleluia, Alleluia
Bless His name, rejoice, rejoice,
Alleluia, Alleluia.”
Would appreciate any help you can give me as to additional verses.
Thanks,
Barbara
barbara, it rings a bell, but it won’t come to me.
I’ll check some books tomorrow and see.
Barbara,
According to the “Handbook for American Catholic Hymnals,” “Christ Is Risen From the Dead” is found in the “Catholic Hymnal” by John G. Hacker, SJ and in “The Parochial Hymnal” by Carlo Rossini. I’m guessing you knew it from the Rossini hymnal since it was in more general use. You could go to your local library and they could do an inter-library loan for the Rossini from another institution that has one.
Dear Barbara Singer:
I have a copy or 2 of the Parochial Hymnal myself–and yes, it fell into the hands of this Lutheran Organist because since Vatican II we occasionally do find ourselves helping out in Roman Catholic churches. My copies were gifts from dear people now deceased.
I do not have just here the other stanzas here at home, as my copy is at my church in our music cabinet; however, there is a beautiful Latin Refrain sung between the stanzas: Resurrexit sicut dixit, Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia.
It has the Fourfold Alleluia, and if done in harmony, while not complicated, is lovely and well within the reach of a small, average Church Choir!
God bless,
Jim K.
I have the partial words to the hymn requested above, but one verse is missing if anyone can fill it in. I’d like to know it also as it was sung at my First Communion and was quite lovely.
O Mary Mother sweetest best from heavens immortal bowers, do gather for a little child a bouquet of sweet flowers.
I wish my little heart to be a cradle fair and gay
where blessed Jesus may repose my First Communion Day, where blessed Jesus may repose my First Communion Day.
My dearest child I can but give so bright a wreath to thee,
That Jesus will delight to come within they heart to be
I give thee …
The violets of humility will bear a sweet perfume,
and Jesus will delight to come within thy little room,
But then remember dearest child the blossoms that I give, require the watering of a prayer or they will cease to live,
Require the watering of a prayer or they will cease to live.
I have the words and music for the First Communion Hymn referred to by Jan and Loretta - only here (in the UK) we knew it as ‘O Mary Dearest Mother’. There are a number of variations. If I can get it scanned, I could forward it if I knew the e-mail addresses.
I am longing to find the words and music to a hymn, heard the first (and only) time when used for the recessional at a Sunday Mass I attended on a visit [home] to Dundee, Scotland from Long Island, U.S.A. Admitedly, it’s a hymn the likes of which could cause the musically elite to cringe and shudder… I find it pleasing to the senses, and continually begin to hum the tune, and sing the words - neither of which I can remember past the first line… It begins something like: “Go! The Mass is Ended… followed by a second line, two syllables short but otherwise identical in rythym and length. The tune might be considered as the hymnody equivalent of bubble gum pop– a Daniel O’Donnell song comes to mind– Nevertheless… If anyone can help in naming the hymn, and providing the words, I’d be ever so grateful?
Dear Kay –
Never heard of the song, ut I will look for it for you next time I’m in the choir room.
We have a lot of music from various eras of various styles.
But i never heard of Daniel O’Donell, so I won’t have much to go on style-wise to narrow the search. Is he Scottish?
If so, could you tell us some American music or composer that is similar to the style of the piece you’re looking for?
Loretta
‘O Mary Mother’ was the special hymn that was sung when I made my first communion in the ’60s in Australia. It has always had special memories for me too and especially just now with my daughter about to make her first holy communion. This is the version of the hymn that I know.
Verse 1:
O Mary Mother sweetest best from heavens immortal bowers,
Do gather for a little child a bouquet of sweet flowers.
I wish my little heart to be a cradle fair and gay
where blessed Jesus may repose on my First Communion Day,
where blessed Jesus may repose on my First Communion Day.
Verse 2:
My dearest child I can obtain so bright a wreath to thee,
That Jesus will delight to come within thy heart to be.
Ill give thee lovely charity more warm that roses glow.
Ill give thee heavenly purity more white than lilies grow.
Ill give thee heavenly purity more white than lilies grow
Verse 3:…
The violets of humility will yield a sweet perfume,
And Jesus will delight to come within thy little room.
But then remember dearest child the blossoms that I give,
Require the watering of a prayer or they will cease to live,
Require the watering of a prayer or they will cease to live.
Pax
Liz
In my parish we use the Catholic Book of Worship III, but I know that the older version CBW II has some lovely hymns that were omitted. Does anyone know where I can obtain a choir edition of the CBW II.
Thanks.
Mary Abbey was looking for the words to Oh, Little White Guest,” a first communion hymn, back in Oct., 2004. I have a Holy Card w/ the words, and if you type in “Little white guest” on google, you’ll get many sites from which you can order the holy card plus many sites which actually contain all the verses. I actually found THIS site because I’ve been hoping to find the MUSIC that goes with the words! I’ve been giving the Holy card with the words on the back for years now to every first communicant I know, but I’ve always wished to have the music, so our choir could sing it for first communions, as I sang it for mine with my fellow first communicants. I have only 2 children left at this point who haven’t made their First Holy Communion, (the 5 oldest already have!) so there’s no time to lose! Please post where I can find the music to this hymn. Thanks! Bridget
Am looking for the words to Communion Hymn,
‘My first Communion Day” Can anyone help?
For Kay Garland. We sing ‘Go, the Mass is ended’ at our church, especially at the end of a ‘family mass’. It is in the 20th Century Folk Hymnal Volume 2. ( Hymn 40.)Compiled by Kevin Mayhew. I would suggest that Daniel O’Donnell is quite well known here. He’s Irish and has made several CDs.
Hope this helps. Frances in the UK
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