The Recovering Choir Director

Very insightful, Aris. And a good analysis of Nick and me, I think!

I had a couple of other comment / responses to Nick that I was going to put back on a previous post, but I’ll put ‘em here — they’ll be up to date that way!

1) As Aris tangentially observes, the switch to the 1970 Missal is a recent history event that we can use as evidence of what works, what doesn’t — you know, a reality check. So… Nick: in 1970, your suggestions about “bringing it to the people” were put into affect widely, to a very heavily mass-going population (something like two to three times as many Catholics were weekly churchgoers as Protestants in ‘70, as I recall reading somewhere). There followed the most dramatic reduction in mass attendance in history, across all of the West. Boom. More numbers by far than the Reformation, possibly similar percentages. So, what’s different now?

2) Personal experience with “come to the people where they are” is that these programs have a bad tendency never to move on PAST the baitin’ ‘em with honey tactics that were originally supposed to just start things off. I have never once in my life, as yet, seen a group / parish / whatever, Catholic or Protestant, that started with fluff and moved to substance. I’ll go further and say that, uniformly, I have observed that the majority of attenders of such fluffy / “more attractive to the youth” programs are the same people who would be at a more traditional / more challenging activity, one at which they might actually be challenged. It’s bad business to cheat your most faithful customers out of what they want, and that’s what every — every — youth program does when it pitches mainly to the “lost” by playing down harder things.

3) Popularized programs vs. traditional devotional life: which one is going to stand up to persecution, age, and trial? I’d just like to observe that the pious devotional life of the Church — not popularized, not easy, but difficult and frightfully suppressed throughout history — has made saints of common men and been the very sustenance that has carried Catholics through trials and troubles and long lives. On the other hand, it is often remarked upon that people who have spent time at, say, Steubenville — home of the very best of the pop culture, yet authentically Catholic, practices Nick advocates — can’t sustain it when they’re out of that milieu. How do you maintain your faith when you have to leave your dynamic faith community with the good band and great friends — when you’ve founded your faith on that? The answer? You either change or leave, and I’m afraid that even one leaving is too many!

Finally, I want to say, despite this negativity: I have only slight reservations about using any and all of the Nick-style tactics to attract people to / back to the Church. Have prayer groups, sing a longs, whatever. Just don’t have ‘em at Mass — because the dignity and importance of that Holy Sacrifice is simply more important than the lesser goods of making Catholicism attractive to the novice. There must be “truth in advertising” when it comes to the Mass, and that means giving way in that liturgy to the ancient voices of Tradition — turning off the amplifiers to hear those whispers from beyond the grave. You may make them happy at the prayer meetin’, but we must feel awe when we come to meet Our Lord.

Nick,
That was quick! And again, thoughtful and challenging. I’ll respond quickly to one thing:

You say: There is a BIG problem with separating the prayer meeting from mass, which I have witnessed with my own eyes. To paraphrase Jesus (when speaking about a house against itself), it pivots the prayer meeting against the mass, and the mass against the prayer meeting. It makes those who love the prayer meeting’s exuberance look with disdain over the mass’ contemplative tone. And they will leave the Catholic church in droves.

But what if that exuberance is misguided? What if the prayer meeting attitude is more about me and less about God. As John the Baptist said, He must increase, I must decrease. The problem with outward exuberance is that it always, always, always need someone — or a small group of someones — to stir it up, and the focus can end up on him or them. And my question still stands: will it last in the long run? The saints have uniformly recommended contemplation over action when it comes to prayer — “be still and know that I am God” and all that. I guess I’d say that the awe you’re talking about happening in Christian rock concerts isn’t the right kind of awe for Mass — I suppose you’re talking about an emotional experience of the overwhelming presence of God? Well, the problem is that however much the heart sings as the band swells and God’s presence is felt, that is an inferior encounter with Christ as compared with the most distracted attendant of the lowliest daily Mass. If our prayer lives are so ordered that the Mass, as such — not based upon emotions! — is not the “source and summit” of our spiritual lives, then we’ve wrongly ordered our spiritual lives, and the lesser goods that the prayer groups work must be sacrificed to the greater good of centralizing the Mass.

Hi Mark…

This is great. We’re both on the board at the same time. If ever there was an opportunity to have a chat room, this is it, I guess.

You wrote:
“But what if that exuberance is misguided? What if the prayer meeting attitude is more about me and less about God. As John the Baptist said, He must increase, I must decrease. The problem with outward exuberance is that it always, always, always need someone — or a small group of someones — to stir it up, and the focus can end up on him or them.”

I’ve been to my share of prayer groups, and I’ve found that in some prayer groups, it’s as you say, and in others, that person in front is likened to the starter of a lawn mower–that once started, it runs itself. The level of what happens where depends upon the patience of the leadership and the maturity of the congregants, built up over a period of months, usually after a Life-in-the-Spirit seminar (recently imprimatured, I might add).

>>And my question still stands: will it last in the long run?

If you’re dealing with Blended worship, then you are simultaneously flexible and rooted. As the generations change around, so will the music, while still staying true to the songs of yore. And some of the songs of today will be a part of this.

>>The saints have uniformly recommended
>>contemplation over action when it comes to
>>prayer — “be still and know that I am God”
>>and all that.

My argument has never been “charismatic vs. contemplative.” It is a “BOTH AND” instead of “ONE OR THE OTHER.”

>>I guess I’d say that the awe you’re talking about happening in Christian rock concerts isn’t the right kind of awe for Mass — I suppose you’re talking about an emotional experience of the overwhelming presence of God? Well, the problem is that however much the heart sings as the band swells and God’s presence is felt, that is an inferior encounter with Christ as compared with the most distracted attendant of the lowliest daily Mass.

I agree with you, but that’s not my point. I would rather say that having awe inspiring music, in any form so long as it is embraced by the parishioners at large, but awe-inspiring nonetheless, is more appropriate for mass than awe-inspiring but choir-only/soloist material/operatic wannabe performances, AND equally more appropriate than “just do the songs they love, hand motions and all” flim-flam.

Can’t anything be a “BOTH AND” anymore? Here’s another example: to effectively lose weight, you must exercise on a regular basis AND watch what you eat.

So my “BOTH AND” is quite simple–do songs that encapsulate the traditional aspects of the church, AND do them in a manner that is contemporary and that folks can relate to. Conversely, do contemporary songs that the folks know and can relate to, but limit the song selection to only those songs that bring them to an active God-focus instead of a self-focus.

Nick

Hi Mark…

Say hello to your sis. She’s a good writer. She needn’t worry about the typos thing. She should read some of my past comments, even the ones I wrote today…

There seem to be three issues in the post. First is about Lord I Lift Your Name on High (LILYNOH). Second about the legitimacy of a “LifeTeen Mass” and third about the power of the Latin mass.

Re: LILYNOH… What can I say? If you don’t like it, ya don’t. I can share this–I’ve known the song for almost a decade, and am disappointed that the LifeTeen scene has come on to this song soooo late. Many of the other Christian youth groups have moved on, while this gets stuck by folks who have found a good song and don’t know when to stop. (They’ve learned from their Glory & Praise “On Eagles Wings” counterparts).

What’s good about it? The fact that it encapsulates, in eleven lines, a very brief description of the Gospel message. Christ’s deity, His death for our atonement, His resurrection from the grave, and our response. Granted, it lacks any of the Sacraments or the fuller picture of the Church throughout all the ages. But for those who are uninitiated, it’s a simple way to get this message across. Baptized Catholics have lived their whole lives and not understood this.

2: Lifeteen. I have always preceded my comments with “done correctly”. That is my guarantee that whatever I endorse may stand up. I’ve not been to your sister’s LifeTeen, but I would dare say that it doesn’t fit that category. You can have LifeTeen masses and (1) not have everybody standing up at the altar, (2) not have non-stop “hit-song” music that is tantamount to junk food, and (3) have silence. I’ve seen it.

I actually am non-plussed by the idea of having folks stand up at the altar–the rubrics say no, and so that should come first. There may be other issues. But if that’s the qualms I have, so be it. The good that LifeTeen does, in getting even chatty girls who simply don’t know better at what to do at mass, to actually COME to mass, will mean more in the long run than for those who feel too timid by a church that does all its cool stuff behind closed doors.

I think a lot of folks go down to the Mesa headquarters church, see a huge new round-altar in a bigger-sized auditorium, and thinks the solution is to imitate what the folks in Mesa do so well. They forget that what works at Mesa, is built upon the thousands who descend upon it who add to the momentum– and that when the mountaintop experience subsides, the folks still hafta drudge, day-in, day-out, with kids who don’t sing, struggle with song selections, music rehearsals, and a visiting priest who may not know how to reach kids. Even at Mesa. Perhaps even more common in churches where the priest does not even have an inclination of doing mass, which filters down to the kids.

The priest at your sister’s parish needs to take the music team by the drumset and set them in line. Do a mix of songs, don’t beat any to death. Allow time for silence. No loud percussion/electric guitar (unless–and this is a personal preference–for opening song and recessional hymns). Some folks, especially teens, are still coming to understand the mass.

If they follow those suggestions, then the whole “un-shy fad” will not be an issue, a sense of holiness will return, and STILL they get to hear it in a way that educates them and treats them with undivided attention.

Thirdly: I am thrilled that she loves the Latin in the mass. She had a much better experience at her Tridentine mass than I did. In fact, I would equate her LifeTeen band which didn’t know when to quit, with the beautiful choir who drowned everybody out at mine. At mine, there was no participation, save for the sit/stand/kneel and reception of Communion. And there were no teens.

It’s a tough question–which I would rather have: the poorly catechized LifeTeen team, drum-noises and all, or the too-professional-to-allow-participation team at the Tridentine Mass that I attended. The latter certainly conveys greater holiness, but the former is reaching the people. A toss-up.

Nick

Mark, you wrote:
:If there weren’t any teens or other young
:people at your Latin Mass, you NEED to find
:another to attend ASAP.

Latin Masses are hard enough to find. That one was the only one in my area, before succumbing to going out of state. No dice.

:And BTW, it’s the parents’ responsibility to
:get teens to Mass and to teach them the
:whys and hows. It’s not up to the “worship
:team!”

There’s no disagreement–however–if the parents shirk their responsibilities (like the parents of the two girls talking throughout mass), then every person, whether the priest, the worship team, or the folks sitting next to them, should always be prepared to share their faith, if they have to. No offence to parents anywhere, but if I had listened to my parents, I’d be torn between a pro-choice mainline or atheism, for that was what they were.

Even so, I find that the music should complement the readings, the seasons, and homily. If the readings, seasons, and homily explain about Christ’s atonement for our sins, and about his death and resurrection, then LILYNOH is not a bad choice of song.

:And participation, as Cdl. Ratzinger has
:endlessly pointed out, does not require you
:ever to open a book or your mouth.
:Participation — in the sense of the Second
:Vatican Council — is interior, primarily.

This is a BOTH-AND issue. I am all for an interior conversion, for contemplation, for being in a state of letting God be God and I recognize Him for Who He is. When I sing, I make sure I mean the words I sing (except for v.4 of “Look Beyond” ).

It’s just that, if choosing songs, then, the Second Vatican Council, while allowing for soloists and performance pieces to be played at certain parts, it states its ideal is to have everybody singing. (I will dig out my Vatican II text later to substantiate this.)

Silence at a mass can mean two things, to two different types of people: it can be a Divine silence, so powerful that you are transported to the Heavenly heights, or it can be an Uncomfortable silence, with lots of shifting in seats and audible coughs. “I’m bored. When are they gonna get this thing over with!?” If the teenagers attending mass are ill-catechized, they need to be trained to be silent. And there are seasons for this.

:Check out his Spirit of the Liturgy.
Already read it.

:It’s probably a better source for
:understanding Catholic Worship than
:Worship Evangelism, no matter how
:practically useful the latter may be.

BOTH-AND. Doesn’t make a difference if you understand it, if you can’t well apply it to a congregation, can you?

:Sorry, that doesn’t cut it, even as basic
:catechesis. Teenagers really are not that
:dumb, don’t you think?

Well, frankly… your sis isn’t. But what about those giggling girls? What about the millions upon millions of kids dropped off at mass by parents who do not understand the faith themselves?

For myself, I was raised in a church that sang “God in man made manifest” every now in then. It wasn’t until I was in college that I began to understand what that actually meant. And considering that I was one of the only ones attending a church service in my college years, meant that there were many more who didn’t give that a second thought.

I love to buy those “Dummies” books on occasion. It doesn’t mean that I endorse being a dummy. It means that I want it explained to me so basic that there will be no question as to what it means. I give you the argument that there is a WHOLE LOT MORE to the Christian life than the eleven verses in LILYNOH. But a song that simple there is no questioning, even for folks who, quite simply, are that… oh, put it gently… eductation-inhibited.

Don’t forget: Everything you’re sharing here is good, and I don’t disagree with you central thesis. I’m just laying out the extra element, the element of the uncatechised, and being a ministry. Folks who stop going to mass do so because they find it so “BO-RING.” I’m not saying pander to them mercilessly so that all forms of holiness are thrown out the window. I’m pushing for a balance, a way to incorporate the old with the new, a way to communicate to the uninitiated, in a way they can best understand, and linking that to the Way Mass Ought To Be.

As a swimming instructor, I’m the guy who would actually guide them from the kiddie pool to basic lessons to the deep water. I envision you the guy who pushes them in at the 10 ft mark, leaving them to fend for themselves (or to have their parents rescue them). Hey, yours does work for some folks…

God Bless,
Nick